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Watch a real judicial caning video from Malaysia
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crostek
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tel wrote:
crostek:
Quote:
Seriously if even Singaporian style caning was so effective, why is it that consistently each year more than a thousand individual are caned in Singapore with a number of them being repeat offenders? Shouldn't there be a continual decrease in the number, particularly with the Singaporean government's child education program that includes discussion about the seriousness and routine use of judicial caning and includes a caning demonstration with a dummy?

You can't assume that because there are a thousand canings each year, then the punishment is not effective in being a deterrent to others. You don't know how many offences would be committed if the canings were abolished. Crime may rocket to ten times what it is now.


And you cannot assume that it would. And by the same token you also cannot assume that it is caning that has kept the crime rate steady over the years. That also is an untested, unproved assumption that those in favor of judicial caning like to believe along with the concept that caning deters. There are far too many intervening variables involved.

All that said, it doesn't address the issue of judicial caning as torture and cruel and inhumane treatment that is unworthy of a truly civilized society.
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tel



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Peterborough

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crostec:
Quote:
......you also cannot assume that it is caning that has kept the crime rate steady over the years. That also is an untested, unproved assumption that those in favor of judicial caning like to believe along with the concept that caning deters...

I am entitled to believe that caning is a deterrent to breaking the rules because I went to a school that used it. It really was a deterrrent to me and my behaviour was influenced by it. My opinion of the effectiveness of the use of the cane is based on my own personal experience and so is not an assumption.
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crostek
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tel wrote:
crostec:
Quote:
......you also cannot assume that it is caning that has kept the crime rate steady over the years. That also is an untested, unproved assumption that those in favor of judicial caning like to believe along with the concept that caning deters...

I am entitled to believe that caning is a deterrent to breaking the rules because I went to a school that used it. It really was a deterrrent to me and my behaviour was influenced by it. My opinion of the effectiveness of the use of the cane is based on my own personal experience and so is not an assumption.


You are right. You are entitled to believe anything you wish...just don't necessarily expect that others will not perhaps expect more scientific and more reliable evidence than your personal belief system.

To accept that your own personal assumptions are the rule in this situation is no different than accepting that the personal belief system of the guy who smoked all his life but didn't get lung cancer, is correct when he concludes that smoking doesn't cause lung cancer.

That said, we were not discussing school CP but the use of judicial CP as it is practiced in Malaysia and Singapore. Even if you are absolutely correct about the deterrant effect and that is really supposition without proof, it still doesn't address the morality of the practice by the state to inflict what amounts to torture.
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tel



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Peterborough

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

crostek:
Quote:
That said, we were not discussing school CP but the use of judicial CP as it is practiced in Malaysia and Singapore.

That's true, but I've used my own experience to say that cp in school was a deterrent to breaking the rules, and now that it has been abolished there is a massive increase in disruptive behaviour and violence for which the 'don't smack children do-gooders ' do not have an answer. It is perfectly reasonable to think that the Singapore canings are also an effective deterrent, and if they were to be abolished then behaviour would most likely deteriorate just as it has done in our schools.
I have previously referrred to the naughty boys who were sent on a safari holiday. Other naughty boys then asked how naughty they needed to be to get a free holiday. That didn't work did it?
Regarding your use of the word torture, do you have a definition for it?
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crostek
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tel wrote:
...and now that it has been abolished there is a massive increase in disruptive behaviour and violence for which the 'don't smack children do-gooders ' do not have an answer. "

Ah, but it is my understanding that in many of these schools the cane has been replaced with nothing. You confuse discipline with corporal punishment and those who are opposed to CP with children as permissive. It is a common falsehood that pro CP people like to perpetuate. Not so. I have worked in the school arena for 35 years and have been assigned some of the most ill behaved students you could find. This type of student was actually my specialty area of a number of years. They were also no stranger to CP in their home. That your schools apparently know little more about school discipline than the procedure for whacking bums is certainly a constraint to children learning to be socialized. That, however, doesn't support the use of CP, it merely supposts better teacher education in your area in regards to student management. You may not like the idea but it is perfectly possible to establish a system of high behavioral expectations and reasonable, logical consequences for misbehavior along with incentives and motivators for proper behavior that will get the job done very well and never requires you once to beat a child.

tel wrote:
...It is perfectly reasonable to think that the Singapore canings are also an effective deterrent, and if they were to be abolished then behaviour would most likely deteriorate just as it has done in our schools.


According to you and what you prefer to believe. The reality is that there is not a single shred of real evidence to support what you are saying that you can supply. Singapore while usually conceeded to be a society with less crime is also usually described as repressive. It may be the general respression and fear of punishment in the society that has a deterring effect rather than caning specifically...or maybe not. There is no evidence to clearly show that either. Personally, I would rather live in a less repressive society than Singapore. I wouldn't even want to go there on vacation.

The same that applied to school can apply to society in general. When you only look at the punitive result that you can administer and never look at the dynamic of the situation or the reasons for behavior then I guess that is the position you would take. So we have societies where prisions are at maximum, people get tortured as punishment and the number doesn't decrease not does the crime rate and we call that "effective".

tel wrote:
...Regarding your use of the word torture, do you have a definition for it?

Have you looked at the clip of the caning in Malaysia? I think that certainly qualifies.

Oh and by the way, if I am a "do-gooder" because I don't think children should be beaten or prisioners should be tortured, does that make you by self-definition a "do-badder"? Smile And when did trying to do good become a negative thing?
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Chris-Admin
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Joined: 16 Jun 2002
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Location: London and Suffolk

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder if we can keep the postings reasonably non emotional and try to avoid becoming personal. I think people are entitled to their opinions and have their views respected.

The purpose of this forum is to enable cp enthusiasts to exchange views. It's not the UN nor are we obliged to come to agreement on what is "right", whatever that may be.

if you can't do that, then I shall cane all of you after school - guilty and innocent.

headmaster
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crostek
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bdischris wrote:
...then I shall cane all of you after school - guilty and innocent.

headmaster


Sounds good to me, sir. Tel, me and any of the others whom I am sure will readily volunteer just need a time to show up at the study. But, please sir, bare bum seems to be the only way.
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Richard



Joined: 15 Nov 2002
Posts: 261
Location: Southampton Hampshire UK

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Caning is not needed in a truly civilised society

So a civilised society like we have today is rapes, murders, mugging and theft
Get real there is no deterrent today
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I always get the wrong end of the stick!! Ouch
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Chris-Admin
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Joined: 16 Jun 2002
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh dear! That's told me.

Maybe not needed, but I like it

Chris
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crostek
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Richard wrote:
So a civilised society like we have today is rapes, murders, mugging and theft


Do you honestly believe that any of those behaviors are specific only to today? History does not tend to bear that idea out.

Richard wrote:
Get real there is no deterrent today


I do not believe that there has ever been anything that has truly been a deterrent when the benefit accrued for committing the bad action in the mind of the criminal (or for that matter the school boy) is greater than the fear of the penalty. Certainly the death penalty as a deterrent for murder has proven to be ineffective. And I would suggest that most people do not commit murder not from a sense of fear of the death penalty but from a personl sense of morality. That I think is applicable to most things we do.
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mentholdan



Joined: 30 Jul 2005
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Location: Central London

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And you'd be dishing out state punishments coz it gives you a stiffy?
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tel



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Peterborough

PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crostek:
Quote:
You may not like the idea but it is perfectly possible to establish a system of high behavioral expectations and reasonable, logical consequences for misbehavior along with incentives and motivators for proper behavior that will get the job done very well and never requires you once to beat a child.

If that is really possible then why hasn't that system been established then? Why is THIS sort of thing happening?
Idealism is fine for after dinner conversation but most of us do live in the real world.
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crostek
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tel wrote:
Idealism is fine for after dinner conversation but most of us do live in the real world.


I have spent the last 35 years living in the "real world" of education and schools and students, often working with students described as the "worst of the worst". Idealism is slammed by those who have given up and would rather take a stick to a child than solve a problem.

And the idea that beating a child who would slash another child in the face is a solution to anything borders on the simplicitically ludicrous.
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tel



Joined: 15 Aug 2005
Posts: 52
Location: Peterborough

PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crostek said this:
Quote:
You may not like the idea but it is perfectly possible to establish a system of high behavioral expectations and reasonable, logical consequences for misbehavior along with incentives and motivators for proper behavior that will get the job done very well and never requires you once to beat a child.

I asked you why this system hasn't already been established but you didn't answer.
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crostek
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2005 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tel wrote:
crostek said this:
Quote:
You may not like the idea but it is perfectly possible to establish a system of high behavioral expectations and reasonable, logical consequences for misbehavior along with incentives and motivators for proper behavior that will get the job done very well and never requires you once to beat a child.

I asked you why this system hasn't already been established but you didn't answer.


Well to take your bait....and you obviously are baiting me, this type of system has been established in a number of places. Personally, that type of system was established in the last school where I was the principal. We never hit children (couldn't it was illegal--wouldn't anyways) and often used incentives, rewards, praise and peer pressure to solicit correct behavior. Punishment was minimized but when used was removal punishment that often had at its core some activity that required either restitution to the offended party or some act of community service or kindness to another. It took a lot more work than simply whacking a kid on the ass but in the long run it established good behavior, meaninful feelings of accomplishment in the students and a sense of right and wrong that wasn't based on fear of pain. Accademically the school also became one of the highest ranked (top 5) consistently in the state. And we were lucky to have parents who supported the school and worked with the school.

I am sure you will likely say I am making this up and there will be nothing I can do about that. I am, however, writing the truth. I've lived it and I know that it works.

Were there tough kids who even under those conditions remained tough kids who had a hell of a time succeeding? Sure, but I can guarantee you that these same kids if you beat them with a cane would have likely stabbed you with scisscors when your back was turned.

You may not like or believe the idea that you get more with a carrot than a stick, and I certainly wonder why that is.
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